Vanthan

…events taking place between 1975 and 1979 during Democratic Kampuchea. The specific timeframe is between 1975 and 1979, and this morning I want….

Im

75?

Vanthan

Yes, between 75 and 79. And today, I want to ask you a little bit about the history of Trapeang Thma Dam being built. Did you ever hear about Trapeang Thma Dam?

Im

About the Trapeang Thma Dam. Yes, I did.

Vanthan

Yes, during this interview…will you allow us to record the interview?

Im

You have to answer some questions, and then…[you can record].

Vanthan

[I] want to ask [you] about when Trapeang Thma Dam was built. How was it constructed? Were there any policies about building the dam, and for what? How many people were involved in working there? How did people work? How was the food regimen? How were people divided into work groups? My questions are to form a history…for other historians and students to do research and learn from those who lived through the regime. Will you allow [us to record you]?

Im

I worked at the dam, but I did not stay there. After spending one year working there, in late 1977 and early 1978, I moved to work and live in Preah Net Preah district.

Vanthan

Does this mean that the dam was built a year before your arrival?

Im

One year before.

Vanthan

One year before. When did you work there?

Im

I went there in 1978.

Vanthan

In 1978. When did you go?

Im

Yes.

Noy

At the end or beginning of that year?

Vanthan

So, it had been established a year before.

Im

I was there in December…[Im Chem answers the phone]… I got there in December 1978. Oh no, in December 1977.

So

You mean that you arrived there in December 1977?

Im

Yes, in 1978, I worked on the summer rice field and rainy-season rice field.

Vanthan

In what district?

Im

In Preah Net Preah district; I went to work in Preah Net Preah district.

Vanthan

In December 1977, did you go…

Im

In 1977, I left Takeo province.

Vanthan

You left Takeo province?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

You left Takeo province for Trapeang Thma.

Im

Yes, I went to supervise that place and the areas below it.

Vanthan

When you got there, how was the dam? What percent of it was complete?

Im

Yes, the dam was built. People were assigned to work on the summer rice field.

Vanthan

So, there was a dam?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

Who was mobilized to work on the dam, do you know?

Im

People were from Svay Sophon, Thma Puok, Phnom Srok, and Preah Net Preah districts. There were a few people from the far east of Svay Sisophon district. A large influx of people came from Phnom Srok and Preah Net Preah districts. People from Thma Puok district worked in the mobile unit.

Vanthan

How did people work there and what materials were used to build the dam? Was there any machinery?

Im

No machinery, only human labor.

Vanthan

Human labor only?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

How long did people work? And what time were they allowed to take a break?

Im

Work started at 7 a.m. until 11 a.m. and then people took a break. At 2 p.m., people started working again.

So

Until when?

Im

From 2 p.m. until 5 p.m.

So

Did they work at night?

Im

They did not work at night. There were groups of people. While the younger groups were working, the older groups took a rest at their own houses.

Vanthan

The older ones slept in their houses?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

So, the houses of those living around there.

Im

Villagers around there.

Vanthan

The younger ones slept at the construction sites?

Im

[The younger ones] slept at the sites.

Vanthan

And, what about the food?

Im

Food was distributed. Those on the front lines were provided with rice. One person received a can of rice per day. The distribution was based on the number of workers and the availability of rice. Everything was collected from the growers in the village and transferred to the construction sites.

Vanthan

What about the food rations?

Im

The food rations…were tackled in a practical way. In some places, a can of rice was boiled and each person could get a bowl of rice porridge. So, the ration was a bowl of porridge. That was the ration.

Vanthan

In general, was it porridge or rice?

Im

Porridge, which was thick porridge; [we didn’t have] rice often.

Vanthan

Generally, porridge.

Im

Yes, generally.

Ly

Let me ask again, when you arrived at the Trapeang Thma Dam, did you know how many people worked there?

Im

I did not supervise, but my management duty was that each district was assigned to take control of each target.

Ly

So, there were people from two important districts, Preah Net Preah and Phnom Srok.

Im

Phnom Srok.

Ly

And there were fewer from other districts?

Im

Yes, a small amount of people were working on the mobile unit and would come to help. That was what I saw. I sent my forces to fill in and help work.

Vanthan

Where did you work previously?

Im

I worked in Takeo province. I was from Takeo province and moved to Preah Net Preah district.

Vanthan

When you were in Takeo, what work did you do?

Im

[I] worked with people.

Vanthan

Before you arrived in Trapeang Thma, did you know who was in charge of this place?

Im

Yes, I did. Ta Nhim and Ta Him of Battambang province, and Ta Maong and At were in control of Preah Net Preah district.

Vanthan

Did they all survive the regime and are alive today?

Im

No.

Vanthan

Are all of them dead or are some still alive?

Im

They all died.

Vanthan

When did they die?

Im

They had died before I arrived there. They were taken away.

Ly

So, in late 1977 and early 1978?

Im

1977.

Ly

Did you know why they were taken away?

Im

They were taken. When I arrived, Ta Maong and Ta At were still alive. But after I got a list, both of them were taken away.

Vanthan

Who assigned you to get the list? From whom did you get it?

Im

I received it from my predecessors.

Vanthan

The predecessors! A boss there, a clerk in Preah Net Preah district?

Im

Of course.

Vanthan

From At or Maong?

Im

Of course.

Vanthan

When they were taken away, what lists did you receive? You did have control there or did someone else take over?

Im

There was a mobile unit chief at the dam. I handed over the unit. However, I took responsibility for the forces of Preah Net Preah district. If there was any problem, I would report it.

Vanthan

Concerning the work, from whom did you receive the working plan between 1977 and 1978?

Im

It was made at the Zone, then the province and down to…. At the Zone it was Ta Nhim and at the province it was Ta Lai at Svay Sisophon.

Vanthan

Ta Lai: did he survive?

Im

Died. The policy was made hierarchically. For example, it was from district to sub-district...

Vanthan

You received the policy directly or through letters or messengers?

Im

They called us to a meeting to receive the plan. For example, one month, there was an assignment to dig canals to start summer rice transplantation. So, we prepared the forces at the back to transplant rice at the front. I divided forces into two groups: one at the construction sites and another one at the back taking responsibility for growing summer and rainy season rice.

Vanthan

So, you controlled the two groups?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

You controlled the forces?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

Is anyone in this village who worked at Trapeang Thma still alive?

Im

No. Yes, not all. Only those working at the back survived. For those at the site, no one lives here; they moved to live at Malai.

Vanthan

What are the names of those at Malai?

Im

Soeun. He worked at the site.

Vanthan

Male or female?

Im

Male. At a market.

Vanthan

You worked at both the construction site and at the back, which provided assistance?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

You were in charge of the dam between 1977 and 1978?

Im

Yes, 77-79. That was in front of the dam within my district. I was at Preah Net Preah at that time.

Vanthan

Was there anyone left at Trapeang Thma?

Im

No. I was the last one to leave.

Vanthan

You were the last to leave.

Im

I built the dam in my own district.

Vanthan

In Preah Net Preah district.

Im

Of course. [ Im Chem talks with other guests]

Vanthan

Who were your colleagues at Trapeang Thma?

Im

Below me was Soeun Chakrei.

Noy

At Malai?

Im

Chakrei is a market.

Vanthan

Oh, at Chakrei market.

Im

Yes! He is the one who was after me for a short time. Because there was a squabble and shots were about to be exchanged, he escaped.

Vanthan

You were in charge of the dam between 1977 and 1978; did you make every decision?

Im

No, I could not make any decisions at the dam. I could make a decision at my own targets, the forces that were under my control. In Phnom Srok and Thma Puok districts, there were other supervisors.

Vanthan

Other supervisors.

Im

Others’ parts.

Vanthan

Were there any upper-level supervisors?

Im

At the provincial level.

Vanthan

The province took joint control?

Im

Yes, it meant the provincial governor.

Vanthan

Which province?

Im

No, it was not Ta Khet.

Vanthan

What was his name?

Noy

It means that it was from the provincial level.

Im

His name was Ta Hing of Sisophon province. Upon my arrival, Hing was taken away and disappeared. Only Ta Lai and Chiel survived.

Noy

Chiel.

Im

Chiel was the son of Ta Nhim, the chief of the zone.

Vanthan

Oh, Chiel was the son of Ta Nhim?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

His father was arrested; why was he not arrested?

Im

Both father and son were arrested. [I ] do not know where they were taken.

Vanthan

The whole family?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

But let’s go back. You said Chiel was the son of Ta Nhim.

Im

Yes, the son of Ta Nhim.

Vanthan

[Chie] was the provincial governor in charge of all of Trapeang Thma?

Im

Of course, together with Ta Lai.

Vanthan

Nhim was arrested, but his son was not?

Im

Both were captured.

Vanthan

But was Chiel able to return?

Im

No, he disappeared forever.

Vanthan

Oh, during that period of time, in 1977 and 1978, Lai and Chiel took complete control of Trapeang Thma?

Im

Yes, Chiel and Lai.

Vanthan

Could you give us the exact date – whether in the early or late 1978 or in which month in 1978 – when Ta Lai and Chiel were captured?

Im

[They] were captured. I do not remember the month but it was when …transplanting rice during the rainy season.

Vanthan

Oh, while transplanting rice.

Im

Yes, in September or October.

Vanthan

In 1978?

Im

Yes, in 78-79.

Vanthan

After they disappeared, who took over?

Im

After their disappearance, there were some quarrels. The ones who took over lost control until the Vietnamese arrived. They fled to the mountains. I worked in that district. I prepared to build two dams and one canal, which linked Trapeang Thma.

So

What were the names of the dams?

Im

Spean Sreng Dam.

Vanthan

Spean Sreng Dam?

Im

Yes, below Trapeang Thma Dam.

Vanthan

Was there another dam?

Im

I built dams at Rorneam in Prasat sub-district.

Vanthan

Rorneam?

Im

Prey Rorneam in Prasat sub-district.

Vanthan

Prey Rorneam was where there was flooding.

Im

Prey Rorneam or Rogneam?

Vanthan

Prey Rorneam from the Tonle Sap.

Noy

Yes.

Im

Water flooded from the Tonle Sap.

Vanthan

Did you have to build the dam?

Im

Yes, we had to build the dam. During the rainy season, the water became high. Thus, we dug canals to connect the dams. Fish from the Tonle Sap came into the dams at O-Chik.

Noy

O-Chik.

Im

O-Chik is close to the Spean Sreng and Ta Pon Rivers near the canal. So, the river connects with the O-Chik River. The Ta Pon River connects with the Spean Sreng River, from where it flows to the O-Chik River.

I built the dam at the upper level. We built a canal 30 meters wide and 10 kilometers long that connects from Trapeang Thma down to the O-Chik River. So, there are a lot of fish. In the meantime, the dam still exists. Looking to the east, it connects with Leaph mountain. I worked there at that time. I had a discussion with my people on the plans…[Im Chem answers the phone]...I’d like to tell you about the work at that place.

Vanthan

How about the two dams and one canal you built? When did you build them?

Im

2000…. Oh, for the whole year of 1978.

Vanthan

For the entire year?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

You said there were a lot of fish after building the dams. How about other farming?

Im

I was able to do the farming because I divided the workforce into two. The young worked at the front. When I arrived at that place, I found it horrible to see youths at the construction site. They were ill and thin. I saw the evacuees from Phnom Penh with no food and being ill. They stayed in the houses because of their illness and lack of food. Generally, the vegetables growing near the houses bore no leaves. When I got there, some people were poisoned when they cooked leaves for food. That was the hardship of the people of Preah Net Preah district before I arrived there.

It was said that those growing vegetables at the back had put their production in warehouses: rice, pigs, and coconuts. Everything produced was put in the warehouse, but those who produced it had nothing to eat. But cadres working at the sub-district, district and provincial levels could consume the production. Those producing palm sugar could only produce it. So, when I arrived there, people kept me alive and supported me or called in supporting forces. That’s why when I fled to the mountains, 4,000 people went along with me.

Vanthan

Went along with you?

Im

With me. Even though I did not allow them to go, they kept going. It was because they believed in me. They shouted that they now could see the light of the sun. So, I let those who had wives return to reunite with their families. When I reintegrated, I came and stayed here. They came and visited me continuously. This year, half of the people from my home village visited me.

Vanthan

Came here?

Im

Yes.

Vanthan

What was your solution to tackle the difficulties?

Im

After identifying these problems, I divided the human forces into two. I came up with a plan. I knew that during the rainy season, knee-deep water flooded National Road 6. Those senior-level cadres who favored me gave me some advice that if you built a dam crossing National Road 6, Tik Cho, Prasat, and Phnom Leap sub-districts would not be flooded. So, I asked them how many dams should we build? They said it would be 30 meters wide, 15 meters at the end, and 20 meters in the middle. People could bring their cows, pigs, ducks and chickens there during the rainy season. During the dry season, I built the dams there to let the water flow through the 10 kilometer dams. There were a lot of turtles and fish: a single net spread could catch half a basket. I drove the boat along…I assigned the first force, who worked on the dams for only three months. Within just that period, I completed the dams.

It was because of that that I let those who were ill and thin look for food freely. They could fish in the river. So each group was released and could survive with their fishing poles. They could catch fish and cook food freely. When I visited there, people’s excrement looked like that of white herons. They ate fully until they got diarrhea. They ate, worked and slept together. The young people lived separately. I was from a provincial unit. Then I confiscated guns from militiamen and district militiamen. Those who were ill were assigned to fish for food, while others were mobilized to work at the construction site.

Vanthan

When you came up with the plan, did you ask for permission from the upper Angkar?

Im

I asked for people’s comments. I raised the plan because I had just moved in. The upper Angkar also paid atte